Wrong Target (part 10 added 10/11/22)

[IJrges]

Obviously kept reading the comments. Couldn't help it. 
I hear you. Their relationship is not overtly abusive. What's funny about it is that when someone is being demonstrably abusive, it's easier to tune them out. A person who speaks or acts abusively is doing it to get a rise out of you, because it makes them feel bigger, and if you realize it's about them, not you, you don't take it as personally.
But neglect is something that can hit a lot harder. It's not that they want to get a rise out of you for some personal reason. It's that your suffering means nothing to them.

I just hope the son at least tells his father how small he's making him feel. I get you like the dynamic, but how does this story progress if the only thing that changes is that the father gets 10% bigger and the son more depressed every chapter? If the kid comes clean with his dad, then their dynamic can be explored. Maybe the father tries to help Kyle to grow, but he can't, and so the dad finds some way to make his son feel loved. Maybe dominates some other HIMs to be submissive to his tiny son. Or maybe his son catches super HIMs off his dad, and they dominate other HIMs together.

There's ways to explore the dominance angle that still resolves the story's primary conflict of Kyle feeling left out and insignificant. 

[MrAlice]

1 hour ago, IJrges said:

Obviously kept reading the comments. Couldn't help it. 
I hear you. Their relationship is not overtly abusive. What's funny about it is that when someone is being demonstrably abusive, it's easier to tune them out. A person who speaks or acts abusively is doing it to get a rise out of you, because it makes them feel bigger, and if you realize it's about them, not you, you don't take it as personally.
But neglect is something that can hit a lot harder. It's not that they want to get a rise out of you for some personal reason. It's that your suffering means nothing to them.

I just hope the son at least tells his father how small he's making him feel. I get you like the dynamic, but how does this story progress if the only thing that changes is that the father gets 10% bigger and the son more depressed every chapter? If the kid comes clean with his dad, then their dynamic can be explored. Maybe the father tries to help Kyle to grow, but he can't, and so the dad finds some way to make his son feel loved. Maybe dominates some other HIMs to be submissive to his tiny son. Or maybe his son catches super HIMs off his dad, and they dominate other HIMs together.

There's ways to explore the dominance angle that still resolves the story's primary conflict of Kyle feeling left out and insignificant. 

That’s a perfectly understandable stance to have, but it’s also entirely valid for a story to be devoid of that kind of resolution. Not every story has to be morally complete. Personally, I find the concept of malignant neglect to be extremely fun to play with in roleplay with friends. 

your desire for emotional closure within the story is entirely valid, but that doesn’t mean that the artist needs to write a story with emotional closure. For my part, I would enjoy the story less if there was that form of emotional closure, because it would undercut the enormous disparity between the two main characters by bridging that gap. The gap is what I find exciting.

so, it’s valid to want something, but that’s just not the kind of story that’s being told

for example: you wouldn’t go to a BDSM club and say “I don’t want to see people being talked down to. That can have serious psychological effects.” Your statement is not wrong, but it is being made in the wrong context. 
 

I will agree, though, that the forum could have a better system of tagging.

[IJrges]

1 hour ago, MrAlice said:

your desire for emotional closure within the story is entirely valid, but that doesn’t mean that the artist needs to write a story with emotional closure. For my part, I would enjoy the story less if there was that form of emotional closure, because it would undercut the enormous disparity between the two main characters by bridging that gap. The gap is what I find exciting.

so, it’s valid to want something, but that’s just not the kind of story that’s being told

I've watched some commentary about eastern vs western writing. Western writing is influenced by the heroes journey, but eastern writing (according to the source) is more about how the main character reacts to the changing circumstances around them. My desire for resolution is more western tradition. What you're suggesting is more eastern tradition. That story would be about how Kyle learns to live with this new reality where his father growing is just part of the setting, something he has no control over. Either he learns some way to integrate this new reality and cope or the chapters repeat until it's obvious that Kyle is just a flawed character whose suffering is meaningless. 

[Kymuscleboy]

13 hours ago, dredlifter said:

What I find really interesting among the comments is the idea that this is a humiliation laden story.  I honestly don't see it that way. 

Trust me, I've written humiliation stories, and the tone in those is very different.  In my "darker" stories the giants do tease, verbally, psychologically and physically humiliate the small people around them.  They call them names like runt, wimp, tiny, boy, pathetic, etc. 

From what we've read David doesn't belittle (heh!) his son.  Sure, he calls him "little guy" and "little man" but there hasn't really been a moment where David intentionally puts Kyle down or humiliates him on purpose, as I recall.  Kyle feels small and emasculated, sure, but that's just a consequence from the ridiculous size and strength difference.

Even with the big party of big men and small people, there really wasn't any outward cruelty toward the smaller people.  It was expected the smaller people help the giants, but I read that as a natural subservience, part of what I find so exciting in stories like this.  For example, at one point does a man become so much bigger and more powerful than you, that you just feel like you need to serve him and help him?  That's a question this story dabbles in.  Really the only humiliation attempt I recall was when the other giant father and giant son were comparing dick sizes.  But even then, the humiliation is pretty tame since they are already both giant muscle men. 

Even in the case of David, I get a sense that he enjoys having his son measure him and help him with injections.  I get a sense that he has some parental pride in being the biggest and strongest dad on the planet.  Even if he doesn't realize how badly Kyle wants to grow as well.  I get a sense that David wants to become enormous for himself, yes, but also to impress his tiny son.  

Also, someone mentioned how it could feel humiliating for Kyle since it seems like so many men are growing huge.  But, I think I recall something about how Kyle's family has always been genetically gifted.  The % of men growing huge probably isn't as much as it seems, I think Kyle is just unfortunately one of the odd man out.  Which honestly...I like, lol.  You can't have a giant if there aren't some small people to compare too.  If everyone in the story is a giant...then actually no one is (stolen line from the Incredibles).

Just my thoughts. 

I do apologize if I was getting a little cranky in previous posts.  I just don't like seeing feedback that could be interpreted as discouraging to any author. 

 

It's really not that the HIMS characters, even his dad, have been purposefully humiliating Kyle. I guess you would say that his humiliation just comes from the situation. Maybe in that respect, humiliation isn't even the best word to use. It's more about Kyle's unfulfilled desire coupled with the envy of seeing others get what he longs for so badly. 

I agree with you about the natural subservience of the smaller people toward the HIMS people, and that's one of the many things that keep me coming back to the story. It is a very interesting exercise in how people relate to each other given vast differences in power (physical in this case). Maybe that explains why people will fawn over or even humiliate themselves to celebrities, politicians, and vastly more wealthy people. After all, it seems that people constantly behave in ways that I think I would never lower myself to, but they are in those situations and I'm not. The normal size people in this story haven't even done anything as extreme as what one can read in the news.

I do feel, whether it's by intention or just a slight oversight, that just about every guy in the world but Kyle and his cousin Kenny has caught the HIMS virus at this point. So far, it's both his mom's and dad's sides of the family, his dad's current friends (reasonable), current co-workers, and former co-workers. As I said in my comments, at least it seems that it's spread to every guy in their family and their circle of friends/acquaintances. I guess that's why I wouldn't feel so bad that Kyle is the odd man out among his family if there are actually other men out there not getting it. However, the author has not said that he is absolutely dead set on Kyle never growing at all. So, I'm just going to keep reading and enjoy the ride whether he ever grows or not. I will just assume, unless it's mentioned otherwise, that there are indeed plenty of other non-HIMS men in the world as well.

It's big of you to apologize for getting cranky. I too have gotten upset with people whose feedback didn't seem to me like it was in good faith or constructive. There have been too many good writers  leave because they either felt unappreciated or had comments that they thought were just plain nasty. Overall though, I think a story that generates this much discussion is an absolute, smashing success. 

[lolpoooper]

I'm not sure I can add much to this discussion as I feel others have articulated some things I had to say better than I could. I'm glad we're all able to have a decent discussion about these things though. Thanks for being cool all.

However, if anyone thinks that it would help, I am willing to add some sort of a warning before the first chapter concerning the continued size difference between the father and son characters, considering the way the story starts with the son wanting to grow big himself, or whatever else. I'm not quite sure how I would phrase it, but I legit 100% understand if it would be helpful to some people. These are unusual, if impossible, family relationships, not everyone comes into the story with the same mindset and history, and the last thing I want is to have someone leaving any thread on this forum feeling shitty or down or whatever. (Unless they consensually agree with it and want that sort of thing :p)

Also, I do see that I've left a couple of things out that seemed pretty obvious to me, but in hindsight may not have been, as for the status of the whole HIMS world, number of HIMS people, and maybe some other things are concerned, and I'm going to add a few sentences about that to clear it up in the next chapter, since it's not a matter of interpretation as much as it's just missing info.

Next chapter should be out tomorrow.

[MrAlice]

12 hours ago, IJrges said:

I've watched some commentary about eastern vs western writing. Western writing is influenced by the heroes journey, but eastern writing (according to the source) is more about how the main character reacts to the changing circumstances around them. My desire for resolution is more western tradition. What you're suggesting is more eastern tradition. That story would be about how Kyle learns to live with this new reality where his father growing is just part of the setting, something he has no control over. Either he learns some way to integrate this new reality and cope or the chapters repeat until it's obvious that Kyle is just a flawed character whose suffering is meaningless. 

Why is that not a valid thing to enjoy? The pathetic struggle of a person who is entirely unable to cope with a new reality is a valid thing to enjoy. The storytelling tradition that you compare it to doesn’t change the fact that it’s gratifying to watch a (fictional) pathetic person suffer.

[dredlifter]

11 hours ago, Kymuscleboy said:

I do feel, whether it's by intention or just a slight oversight, that just about every guy in the world but Kyle and his cousin Kenny has caught the HIMS virus at this point. So far, it's both his mom's and dad's sides of the family, his dad's current friends (reasonable), current co-workers, and former co-workers

I think this was brought up in one of the last chapters.  That by this point pretty much everyone has caught the virus, it's just that the virus no longer causes the extreme growth. 

Some great parallels to Covid, really.  Early versions of Covid were much more extreme than they are now.  Even at the party, it was suggested that every giant had one or two normal people with them.  In one case they were actually boyfriends.  So there are plenty of other 'normals' around.   

 

And you brought up a great point about how Kyle's humiliation comes from the situation.  At some point Kyle has to take the onus on himself to deal with his envy.  After all it's not David's fault that he's a giant.  In fact...it's actually Kyle's...which I suppose may be why he feels so envious of course.  But you have to come to terms with it eventually.  If your neighbor wins $500M lottery, are you going to be continually pissed at and extremely jealous of your neighbor?  Or are you going to deal with it like an adult?  Perhaps learn to celebrate the good fortunes of others.   

Can't wait for the next chapter!

 

[Ripped]

3 hours ago, dredlifter said:

Some great parallels to Covid, really.  Early versions of Covid were much more extreme than they are now.

It's not to the virus’s advantage to kill the host. That’s something I wished SARS-CoV-2 would have learned long before it did.

BTW, loving the debate. Just wish Black Cat could have generated as much dialog.

[IJrges]

10 hours ago, MrAlice said:

Why is that not a valid thing to enjoy? The pathetic struggle of a person who is entirely unable to cope with a new reality is a valid thing to enjoy. The storytelling tradition that you compare it to doesn’t change the fact that it’s gratifying to watch a (fictional) pathetic person suffer.

If the writer enjoys writing more of this, then you'll probably get that.
However, I'm curious. Does repeating the cycle diminish the humiliation fantasy if the main character becomes hopelessly hopeless? As someone mentioned, you do kind of need contrast to judge the father against, but if Kyle is utterly pathetic without any good qualities, what is David actually getting contrasted against except a pathetic kid that anyone could dominate.

[MrAlice]

1 hour ago, IJrges said:

If the writer enjoys writing more of this, then you'll probably get that.
However, I'm curious. Does repeating the cycle diminish the humiliation fantasy if the main character becomes hopelessly hopeless? As someone mentioned, you do kind of need contrast to judge the father against, but if Kyle is utterly pathetic without any good qualities, what is David actually getting contrasted against except a pathetic kid that anyone could dominate.

It does not diminish the fantasy. Simple as that.